Member, Ee Kiat asked:
I am wondering how can I adopt reefing off the wind for my boat.
I have a behind-the-mast furling main (old Famet roller furler) that came with the boat I bought used.
I am just wondering if the mainsail would be loaded to a point that it cannot be furled in while sailing downwind… …I fear the furling system can fail if the furling line is winched hard resulting in something unimaginable.
I have always rolled in the mainsail rounding up to wind… …because the sail is the least loaded. Any tips and comments that you give would be most appreciated.
The question got me thinking about furling systems. And that took me back three decades to when I bought the McCurdy and Rhodes 56 (M&R 56) and the previous owner delivered a couple of boxes of used parts, including not one, but two damaged torque tubes from the jib roller furler.
That memory together with Ee Kiat’s question made me realize that there is a fundamental fragility with all roller furlers, whether they be headsail, in-mast, in-boom, or aft-of-mast:
Very fair point, but online (and in my own experience) it is usually the halyard wrap that is being discussed as the main failure ( it is much more dangerous ofc for the mast Integrity
Hi Ignat,
I agree that a halyard wrap is common, but I would argue that this is an even greater reason that roller furlers should be designed with some way for the operator to understand when the furling force is getting too high. Or to put it another way, if the halyard wraps and jams the furler and the operator keeps cranking a failure at the torque tube or foil is the most likely outcome.
More on how to avoid halyard wraps: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/03/23/handling-roller-furling-sails/
This is timely as my wife and I have been noodling about adding a furler to the inner / Solent stay on our Najad 380 for our stays’l (blade jib). We sail shorthanded as a duo and a furler for the smaller sail would allow my wife to act more autonomously when I’m down. It’s a balancing act between the benefit provided when it does work and the risk posed when it doesn’t!
Hi Jeffrey,
Yup, like all things in life and boats it’s a trade off. That said, we added roller furling to our staysail and never regretted it. More here:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2008/04/18/roller-furler-vs-removable-staysail-stay/
https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06/01/how-to-heave-to-in-a-sailboat/
Hi Jeffrey,
I also sail a cutter and have RF on the staysail and am very happy with it that way. It decreases visits to the foredeck and makes it adjusting sail balance and area very easy in changing conditions and ensures good air flow onto the main.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
I have a good roller furler for my headsail, but have often thought about going old school and getting rid of it and going to hanked on headsail. The few times I’ve used the headsail partially furled, the sail shape is terrible and stretches the sail in ways it’s not meant to be stretched. Also it loads the headstay with more concentrated loads at the leech and luff. And in a blow, loads are concerning on the furling mechanism. I think when I go to get a new headsail, I will switch and have 2 headsails on hanks.
Hi Robert,
Definitely worth thinking about. Here’s chapter on the hanked on option: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/03/08/hank-on-sails/
Another good option to improve the roller reefing situation, without having to change headsails, is converting to a cutter: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/09/17/12-reasons-the-cutter-is-a-great-offshore-voyaging-rig/
We replaced our late 90s Profurl with the current version last year in our Catana 471. It was a DIY job with two friends helping (or maybe me helping my two friends-thanks Steffen & Todd!)
The reason for replacement was the foil connectors and foil extrusions were aging out and had too much slop or play, and were eating the luff tape. The drum & swivel were in good shape.
The new kit (thanks FKG) like most, has a much heavier bottom foil section. As we have a fixed length rod forestay there is no Torque tube, and this heavier lower foil keys and bolts into top of drum assembly.
We bear away to furl, unloading the sail as much as possible. With the old furler we reefed under load a few times, and this surely contributed to the connector/foil wear. We keep good track of halyard tension and-touch wood- have never had a halyard wrap problem.
Thanks for the good tips!
Just lately, I saw someone in the boatyard wrap their Genoa halyard around the forestay, and using an electric winch in an attempt to furl the sail, they managed to unlay and then break their forestay. 7/16 1×19, on a 45 foot boat.
Until I read this, it hadn’t occurred to me that other parts of the furling system maybe ought to have broken first.
(The off-topic coda to that story is that after he got his forestay replaced, he wrapped his halyard, again. Turns out he was consistently connecting the halyard to the BOTTOM of the swivel.)
Hi Karl,
A graphic demonstration of why I don’t like electric winches, and that using one to furl the sail is a really bad idea. Of course attaching to the top of the swivel might help too!
We have roller furlers for the jib, Code Zero, and a gennaker on our Dragonfly 32 tri.
For all three sails, we always try to turn down to at least 140-160 TWD to the boat for both unfurling and furling to unload sails and the furling units and until yesterday I’ve always been able to re-furl without the assistance of a winch. For unfurling, I always have 1-2 wraps on a winch for the sheets. We commissioned a new jib for the boat yesterday made of Hydra Net sailcloth and I found that when re-furling (even when turned down) that I could not get it started by hand. I had to get the first wrap started using a winch and then I could do the rest by hand. The only reason I can figure for this is because I believe the Hydra Net material is stiffer than the laminated material that the jib we replaced is built from.
We have had to do some furls in anger of the jib (over 12 knots of wind, TWD to the boat of less than 90 degrees) and what we do is have one person is easing the jib sheet while another is slowly furling with a winch (not electric but manual). With proper attention, this controls the load on the furler and minimizes flogging the sail.
I think a lot of problems and potential catastrophes can be avoided by planning the furling well in advance (and don’t forget to look up prior to and during).
Hi Bob,
Good tips, particularly “look up”. Amazing how often I see people winching something without looking at whatever it is.
On the Hydranet experience, I had a similar experience commissioning a new Contender Fibercon Pro jib this fall. I believed my furling unit to be on the small side for my last jib which was made of far lighter laminate cloth. The new jib is extremely difficult to furl with the stiffer, heavier cloth. I had additional material added to the leech and foot to take the loads when roller reefed, making it more difficult. Other than going through the heafty expense of going to a larger furling system, I’m not sure what to do. Maybe the cloth will break in?
Hi Jesse,
The HyrdraNet cloth will certainly “break in”. I have had HydraNet Radial cloth sails for ~12 years now. I do not remember them being appreciably more stiff and ornery than other new sails I have gotten over the years.
My best, Dick stevenson, s/v Alchemy
A furling system can promote holding onto sail area a bit monger than needed. Also, older hull forms heal then sort of stay at the same angle for a while and when you notice the heal angle getting up and the wind pressure is much higher than beneficial.
Last year I fitted a Harken system to replace my old Selden unit. To manage any risk of damaging stuff, as well as maintenance, I now reef the headsail earlier than I think and surprise, surprise, my boat speed hardly changes. Also, I am resolute in watching what you are adjusting. Something I drum into anyone working winches. There is little point grinding away and staring at the winch to apply the effort, you have to see, or have someone else look, when working the winch.
I think if you have a reasonable frequency for rig inspection, then issues with the foil and lower swivel should be detectable.
However, I get what is being said in the article and it takes great experience to get a feel for the load on the winch, furling line tension and furling drum, sail wrap rotation.
Hi Alastair,
That’s the point, as you have identified, it takes big time experience to sense how much torque we can apply, and yet the vendors sell these things, particularly for mainsails, as being easier and suitable for the inexperienced, which is total BS.
This is very interesting for me for three reasons:
Great article and very timely, once again John. Thanks very much.
Hi Paul,
Good comment highlighting that furlers taking a lot of tweaking to get right. Yes, you definitely need a deflector or possibly a strop between the sail and swivel to move the swivel up, which in some situations will increase the angle the halyard makes to the head stay, which is the secret to avoiding wraps. More here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/03/23/handling-roller-furling-sails/
John,
I’m really surprised at your mention of needing a winch to furl your J109 jib. In 25 years of sailing with our Saga 43’s solent rig (135% genoa + 105 blade jib and Harken Mk 3 furlers) I have never needed a winch, even in wind up to the low 30’s. The key for me has been to ease the main, bear off to blanket the over sheeted headsail and with the wind pushing the headsail forward it almost wants to furl itself.
I think when you add 4, 5 or 6 turning points for the furling line, there is more total friction than one would realize. On a previous boat with an older furler, a Kiwi friend showed me a good trick: bear off as noted above, send crew to the bow and pull the furling line from as close to the drum as possible. That eliminates all the friction going around stanchions and immediately lets you know how much extra effort would have been needed to furl from the cockpit.
Hope this is a helpful tip for most of us who have been guilty of furling a bit too late!
Roger Neiley
Hi Roger,
Sure, I too bear off and blanket the jib, and can then pull it in easily. And yes, a pull forward can help, but it does require crew. But, as I point out in the article, that only works with a jib, and there are also times when we can’t bear off. You also see people sailing with just the jib a lot (not recommended) So that’s why I pointed out that the requirement to reef without a winch in most manuals is bogus and further how little wind it takes to make that impractical.
Roger, do you actually have a MK3 on the jib? Mine is a MK1! MK3 is on the genoa of my Saga 43.
I just read your post, “The Intrinsic Fragility of Furling Systems”, and followed several links to Lane Finley’s essay, “The Case for Hank On Sails” in your post March 8, 2012. My wife and I have used hanked-on sails on our Ingrid 38, Mintaka, for the past twenty-five years, totaling over fifty-thousand sea miles, with three Pacific crossings and many lesser passages, so I feel competent to add a few comments to Lane’s excellent essay.
First off, I second every one of his comments about hanked-on sails. But his essay only equates the advantages of hanks with not having the disadvantages of furlers. He doesn’t go into the ease and pleasure of using them. Our headsails go up about as fast as a furled sail can be let out, and it is a joy to raise them. They only need a winch for the final tightening. More importantly, they come down much faster and much easier than a sail can be furled, and on any point of sail. They never need a winch for this. We also routinely sail up to and off our anchor, which I almost never see any other cruising boat do. This is quite satisfying, even fun, not to mention worthwhile practice. Being able to drop the jib in seconds makes the process a snap.
Clearly, one of us needs to go forward to drop and secure a headsail, but in most conditions, that’s no big deal. Yes, there are times when it’s wet, cold, uncomfortable, and maybe a bit scary, but isn’t this really part of the game. Wet, cold and uncomfortable kinda goes with voyaging, at least some of the time. It’s the scary part that needs more discussion. Going forward routinely develops skills and attitudes that improve safety in exceptional conditions. It also motivates one to make the foredeck as safe to work in as possible. You will have to go forward sometime, probably in that “dark and stormy”. If you’re not used to it, and if it’s not a safe working space, there goes your cockpit security.
Ultimate reliability, repairability, simplicity — these are all virtues when in far off places. Hanked on sails are all of that. They go up when you want them, and they come down when you don’t want them. Not much else to say about that, as there’s not much to go wrong. And what little there is, can easily be repaired. Not so with furlers.
Hi Mark,
I agree about the benefits of hanks, and particularly about the importance of being comfortable going forward: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/09/03/six-reasons-to-leave-the-cockpit-often/
That said, there is also a case for furling sails: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/03/23/handling-roller-furling-sails/
Dick, how do you handle the transfer of the sheet to the new clew? I am always looking for better ways to do this. I think reefed hank on headsails are under used. Glad to hear someone be sides me and Norman Devant are advocates.
Hi Carl,
The sheets were no problem. The sail is on the deck under control, the pennant for the tack is attached and I am likely sitting or kneeling on deck tying in the reef points. Single line sheets attached with a cow or clove hitch may present more work, but my sheets were individually tied to the clew and were easily untied from the full sail clew and re-attached to the reef clew. The lead change has already been figured out.
My best, Dick
Absolutely, there is a case for furling sails, at least headsails. I’m 70 now, and I don’t want to change headsails in a blow either. Interesting that you mark ten tons as a cutoff for needing a furler. Our Ingrid weighs thirteen tons, and we don’t find that need. I think the difference is that we have a long bowsprit and a triple-headsail rig (a truly old-school boat). There’s a masthead stay to the end of the ‘sprit, a fractional stay also to the end of the ‘sprit, and a stay to the bow for the staysail. This gives us considerable versatility, almost never having to change a sail; we just raise or drop the appropriate one. We do have a storm jib (goes on the fractional stay), but we’ve only had to use it once (in the southern forties). Being rigged as a ketch also contributes versatility (albeit not weatherliness), and keeps all the sails smaller for our displacement.
Hi Mark,
I think you hit on one of the keys with hank-on headsails which is having a sail plan that means you don’t need to actually swap out the sails, just raise and lower the correct ones. For many boats, this means a cutter rig pairs really nicely with hank-on. A well set up reef can be taken in a few minutes even in reasonably rough weather so is an option if more versatility is needed but the bunt of the sail needs to be appropriately managed which can be tricky. To me, this solves a few of the biggest issues with hank-on like trying to get a sail down below with the foredeck awash, having soaking wet sails below and simply having enough storage for several sails below. If you have downhauls, between that and the sheets you can tame a sail pretty well before having to actually touch it.
There are probably many ways to think about the max size for hank-on. Somewhere around 500 ft^2 per sail is probably a practical limit for normal people and also a total sail weight in the 100lb range. I have experience with hank-on up to around 1000 ft^2 made of 16 oz cloth and those are manageable by 2 people even in pretty snotty weather but there are many tricks you need to learn such as getting the sail tied down first and then neatening it up if it is blowing.
Eric
Hi Mark,
A lot to be said for three headsails, and I have long been a cutter fan for many of the same reasons. Interesting that many of the top end race boats are going that way these days, although on furlers.
Sound reasoning,plus all the beer money saved ,and maint.
Great tip John. It also helped christalize some scattered thoughts I’ve had about our recent failure of a brand new Genoa furling line. I’ll keep it super short. Shout if you want any further details. The crux is:
1. Fullers/furling lines don’t only break while furling. We furled our Genoa down to 3rd reef. Later the wind picked up, and a gust snapped the furling line. Twice.
2. The above illustrates another good point. Use weak links to choose what you want to break first. It was much easier to fix/replace the snapped furling line than a broken furler. We use the same principle n several other places. e.g. I put weak links on the reefing points on our main. I’d rather snap a weak link than tear a main sail.
3. As an aside, after recently installing the brand new Harken Genoa furler, I double checked all turn blocks along the furling line for wear and tear, and replaced one with slightly higher friction. I also replaced the furling line with one the (seemingly very competent) rigger recommended. The setup was therefore as new and fault-free as could reasonably be expected. Still, in 25 knot winds, the load on the furling line (and consequently also furler) are very high (snapped a 10mm double braid polyester line, twice in succession). The problem you outline is very real, in my experience.
The above is all in a 53’ cruising catamaran.
Hi Quinton,
That’s interesting, particularly because I have never heard of a furling line breaking under load like that. I guess the difference here is the huge form stability of your boat which will result in very high loads in a gust, rather than said loads being reduced as the boat heals as they would be in a monohull.
As to intentionally using weaker lines, it’s an appealing idea, but not one I’m totally comfortable with because of the dangers of getting the sail back under control in big breeze, particularly a roller furling headsail.
Yes, I share your concern John. The problem is that getting the sail under control with a broken furler is strictly more difficult than with a broken furling line. The line can either be repaired (I just tied a bend in it) or replaced. It’s not usually feasible to repair or replace a furler on a rough passage.
Hi John,
I too have seen a few extrusion failures although not in many years. It also bothers me that there is not realistic guidance on what acceptable loads are.
We plan to make the switch to roller furling next winter and one of the things I have been wondering is how much of a difference in stress is there on the torque tube to having a bottom swivel. I think I have convinced myself to go that way as it gives a lot better sail shape reefed but it means everything needs to be built a bit stronger.
Putting some very rough numbers to it, taking a typical 40’er, the max genoa sheet load experienced should be in the neighborhood of 1000 lbs. Assuming the sail is stalled and not providing significant drive, that means the sail is pulling on the torque tube with ~1000lbs (this is some fuzzy math that is pretty dependent on sail shape and how flat it is sheeted). A typical torque tube might be 0.75″ radius for a torque of 750 in lbs. For a safety factor of 1 with a perfectly round torque tube, you would be looking at a wall thickness of 1.5mm (.060″) in a 6061 T6 extrusion. If the furling line is pulling at a radius of 3″, then in a frictionless system, you might see a furling line tension of 250lbs. The world is not frictionless so the tension in the line just to hold the sail partially furled would be less and the tension to roll it up under pressure would be a lot more as when it is under pressure there is a lot of friction on the forestay.
Eric
Hi Eric,
That’s interesting and certainly puts paid to the instruction not to use a winch on the furling line, other than when we can blanket the sail behind the main. And that does not always work that well, particularly if the main is reefed.
From the Furlex 404s instruction manual:
“If using a winch for the furling line, first check that there is no obstruction which may interrupt the furling operation and possibly cause damage” . Nowhere does it say never to use a winch on the furling line.
Hi Brian,
Good to hear that at least some of the manufactures are coming to their senses on this. Still, as far as I know, they are not giving us any indication of safe working load, or incorporating any indicator, which was my basic point in the tip. That said, it was cool to see that they have incorporated overload protection into their electric drive unit.
Brian on Helacious
Hi Brian,
All good tips, thanks.
Hi John,
Interesting article and I’m sure as a generalisation you are one the mark. However, I think that you should be a little more perspicacious when stating “fundamental fragility with all roller furlers”.
We have a Southern Spars electric driven in boom furling main. If too much halyard tension is applied when furling or I have not let the mainsheet off sufficiently if off the wind, the motor simply stalls.
Similarly, the electric driven Selden headsail furler refuses to furl if we have too much tension on the sheet.
I grant you that neither system has a load meter telling us when we are getting close to stall or the load at stall, but from the experience of many hundred furls I suspect, rather than know, that there is a very large safety margin built in, especially with the Southern Spars system.
Cheers
John
Hi John,
Good to hear, and certainly better than nothing. But I don’t think stalling an electric motor is an optimal way to insure not overloading the system.
John-
I haven’t seen comments yet on how halyard tension or headstay sag impact furling friction. I continue to look for the magic formula for minimizing headsail furling line pressure with my harken furler and find both can have a significant impact on furling friction.
Any thoughts?
Hi Chip,
I’m planning a tip(s), or possibly an article on making furlers work better and will tackle that there. Thanks for bringing it up.
Hello,
I have an (Hallberg Rassy) HR48 MKII. HR boasts about their push button sailing, which I was intrigued by, but also cautious. My HR came with Seldon hydralic furlers for thein-mast main and genoa. My experience has been game changing. Not having the extra furling line to foul makes most furling operations a “breeze”. I’ve got my sails in and out before the next boat can put their furling line on a winch. But to the point of the article, the seldon hydralic system has a pressure limit, and will stop furling if there is too much pressure. When furling, you will always know if there is too much pressure because the sail won’t furl! In such cases, you change tactics to relieve the pressure. Because of this, I don’t stress during the furling process, and that is game changing. The down side is that they are expensive systems, but of all the things that cost you on a boat, I’d put this high on the value list.
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
Sure, if a furler really does have a torque limiter, that really works, then I’m much happier about it, but most don’t, although I did find another that at least claimed it, see foot notes.
This comment may well be stretching the main focus of this article. Feel free to shut it down.
I’ve never owned a boat with an in-mast or in-boom main sail furling system. The thing about them that has always worried me (theoretically, in my head) is the potential for entanglement inside the mast/boom, and how difficult/impossible that might be to resolve at sea. Headsail fullers’ failure modes also concern me, but at least most of the components are visible and accessible, so the headsail could at least usually be manually untangled, unfurled and removed from the track in a bad case scenario. If a main sail, partially furled, gets stuck inside the mast, it’s not clear to me that that would be resolvable at sea.
I’d be curious what others’ practical experience with in-mast and in-boom furling systems at sea has been. Are my concerns unfounded? The convenience factor in the happy case scenario, especially for reefing, is quite compelling indeed. It’s the bad case scenarios that worry me.
The other part of the calculus (in my head) is that the convenience of not having to hoist, dowse, and change headsails when shorthanded, far outweighs the risks associated with headsail furthers. For mainsails, the relative benefits seem less to me. Raising, lowering and reefing my main is relatively easy, even single-handed, without a main sail furling system.
Hi Quinton,
See further reading at the end of the tip for in depth resources including user interviews and tons of comments, as well as two chapters on how to decide if one of these systems is right for you.